OpenChess

kingliveson wrote:

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:

hyatt wrote:That excuse doesn't pass the "smell" test. Nobody would want the ICGA to label them as a cheater if there was any way to avoid it. But if it is hopeless, then silence is better as it blows over that much sooner..

I agree that it's unbelievable. On the other hand, if he has decided that his financial future has nothing to do with consumer sales, and everything to do with corporate sales, to corporations which don't care if he copied code... (e.g. Silver and Friedel were on the panel, Chessbase news has yet to mention to story). I'm just speculating, though.

Jeremy

Hahaha, you really expect ChessBase to mention the article?! lol

If they take themselves seriously as a chess news source, then yes. But clearly...

Matthias Gemuh wrote:

ThinkingALot wrote:Sure, it's quite unlikely that Vas played with Rybka 3 beta in 2005. However, IMHO, this tiny possibility makes ICGA's demands of trophies and prize money back a bit premature, don't you think? Because such demands are based not on evidence but just on a suspicion.

Even Vas himself does not claim to have played with Rybka 3 beta in 2005.

.

Hi Matthias. We haven't talked in a while. And I always enjoyed testing your engine in CCRL, as I told you many times. With the Vas issue, there are some things that bother me, and there are some things that bother other people, and the latter is the reason this issue will never go away. That being, no matter what anyone says, the vast majority of the panel know that Vas looks at the ICGA as a joke. No one jump on me- Rybka is not my program. And they know he really doesn't care one way or the other what they think. There are a lot of people that are enraged because it goes way further than guilty or innocent. If he had been found innocent, he would have enacted no more conversation with the ICGA than he did with the guilty verdict. Never would have even thanked them for their time and effort. I'm not saying he is right or wrong in his perception of ICGA and their investigation. I don't care what he thinks. It is not my fight. But there are plenty of people who will never be able to stay quiet and let the issue rest as long as his program sales don't drop, and even increase with all the advertisement he gets from the whole mess. A wise old politician once said that the secret was to get your name in the paper, and keep it there. He said don't worry if the news about you is good or bad- it doesn't matter, as long as the focus of discussion is on you. You want to become a household name, and not give a damn why. Right or wrong, there is a lot of truth there. You see it over and over. Someone said that a grandmaster who wants to use a program to prep for a tournament isn't going to care about any of this. And if no legal action is taken by either side, Vas is still going to have a pocket full of money and a bank full of the same. If not already, give it a year or so, and he won't have to work another day in his life if he so chooses. And that is going to keep the fires burning and certain groups banging their fists ag. the wall.

Now to something I think about. A couple of things bother me. I AM NOT saying anyone on the panel was unfair in their decision, but I have looked at both sides. Heard what they said. And I am certain, no matter the argument, it was their intention to do everything they could to keep CW off the judges/jury panel. Without getting caught at it. It was carefully calculated (at least to me) to make sure he was welcome, but with words they knew would alienate him. I am not saying all of them, but more than just a couple. I AM NOT stating a fact- only saying what I think and feel. And certainly past me and my 2 dogs and a cat, no one cares what I think about it. And they shouldn't. It is one thing for Bob Hyatt to say he was guilty. Because barring any personal agendas he may or may not have, he would by his profession be in a position to know. What I just shook my head at and said the hell with it, was the large number of people I asked before any of the panel was even formed, how they were completely with no doubt 100% sure Vas was guilty. Might as well just have had one recorder and punch a button. It was always the exact same answer: "Because Bob Hyatt says he is." That's ok, but I would have thought that since they were like me in their programming expertise, a couple of them would have tried to at least get a 2nd opinion. Hell, I talked to as many as I could. And I just did not feel right when Bob Hyatt told me and many others more than once that it did not matter to him what panel or jury were to declare Vas innocent, he was guilty and would always be guilty. Even tho that could actually be true, I just couldn't reconcile letting Bob say that and still be on the panel, or anywhere near it. Does not matter that he did not have a vote. He had input, and sometimes perception is just as important as the truth. I will admit there were times where I said most anything just for, I guess, what I called aggravating
Bob. Seemed to be fun at the time. It can be stupid, illogical, completely without merit, and maybe crazy- but I have spoken straight from my heart and tried really hard to do so without being unfair. Maybe I did, maybe I did not. But I guess the world will keep on turning.


Best,

GTS

geotsp8 wrote:

Matthias Gemuh wrote:

ThinkingALot wrote:Sure, it's quite unlikely that Vas played with Rybka 3 beta in 2005. However, IMHO, this tiny possibility makes ICGA's demands of trophies and prize money back a bit premature, don't you think? Because such demands are based not on evidence but just on a suspicion.

Even Vas himself does not claim to have played with Rybka 3 beta in 2005.

.

Hi Matthias. We haven't talked in a while. And I always enjoyed testing your engine in CCRL, as I told you many times. With the Vas issue, there are some things that bother me, and there are some things that bother other people, and the latter is the reason this issue will never go away. That being, no matter what anyone says, the vast majority of the panel know that Vas looks at the ICGA as a joke. No one jump on me- Rybka is not my program. And they know he really doesn't care one way or the other what they think. There are a lot of people that are enraged because it goes way further than guilty or innocent. If he had been found innocent, he would have enacted no more conversation with the ICGA than he did with the guilty verdict. Never would have even thanked them for their time and effort. I'm not saying he is right or wrong in his perception of ICGA and their investigation. I don't care what he thinks. It is not my fight. But there are plenty of people who will never be able to stay quiet and let the issue rest as long as his program sales don't drop, and even increase with all the advertisement he gets from the whole mess. A wise old politician once said that the secret was to get your name in the paper, and keep it there. He said don't worry if the news about you is good or bad- it doesn't matter, as long as the focus of discussion is on you. You want to become a household name, and not give a damn why. Right or wrong, there is a lot of truth there. You see it over and over. Someone said that a grandmaster who wants to use a program to prep for a tournament isn't going to care about any of this. And if no legal action is taken by either side, Vas is still going to have a pocket full of money and a bank full of the same. If not already, give it a year or so, and he won't have to work another day in his life if he so chooses. And that is going to keep the fires burning and certain groups banging their fists ag. the wall.

Now to something I think about. A couple of things bother me. I AM NOT saying anyone on the panel was unfair in their decision, but I have looked at both sides. Heard what they said. And I am certain, no matter the argument, it was their intention to do everything they could to keep CW off the judges/jury panel. Without getting caught at it. It was carefully calculated (at least to me) to make sure he was welcome, but with words they knew would alienate him. I am not saying all of them, but more than just a couple. I AM NOT stating a fact- only saying what I think and feel. And certainly past me and my 2 dogs and a cat, no one cares what I think about it. And they shouldn't. It is one thing for Bob Hyatt to say he was guilty. Because barring any personal agendas he may or may not have, he would by his profession be in a position to know. What I just shook my head at and said the hell with it, was the large number of people I asked before any of the panel was even formed, how they were completely with no doubt 100% sure Vas was guilty. Might as well just have had one recorder and punch a button. It was always the exact same answer: "Because Bob Hyatt says he is." That's ok, but I would have thought that since they were like me in their programming expertise, a couple of them would have tried to at least get a 2nd opinion. Hell, I talked to as many as I could. And I just did not feel right when Bob Hyatt told me and many others more than once that it did not matter to him what panel or jury were to declare Vas innocent, he was guilty and would always be guilty. Even tho that could actually be true, I just couldn't reconcile letting Bob say that and still be on the panel, or anywhere near it. Does not matter that he did not have a vote. He had input, and sometimes perception is just as important as the truth. I will admit there were times where I said most anything just for, I guess, what I called aggravating
Bob. Seemed to be fun at the time. It can be stupid, illogical, completely without merit, and maybe crazy- but I have spoken straight from my heart and tried really hard to do so without being unfair. Maybe I did, maybe I did not. But I guess the world will keep on turning.


Best,

GTS

I realized after looking at this thread for a bit (I am trying to keep a close eye on my threads for a time) that it might be a good idea for anyone who reads it to understand that it is not rather long because typing is fun. But it was really for all practical purposes my first thread here after opening a new acct. with my real name. And there has been so much false information floating around about what I have said in the past concerning the issue and what I felt and didn't feel. I suppose someone had decided that they could even explain my position better than I could. I thought it wasn't a bad idea for me to clear the air and let anyone interested hear the truth. Meaning the truth as I see it. Throw out any threads that were for the sole purpose of aggravating Bob- which may have been childish on my part- and I think I have been constant with my thoughts. And only once have I said anything I knew to be not true, and I apologized to Bob for that on an open forum. So anyway- that's it.

gts

George, so long as your posts are informative as opposed to personal, I'm willing to discuss anything.

Let me at least get my quote correct that you mentioned...

"given the data that we have, if this were to go to court and Vas were found innocent, I would still consider him guilty." The only way that would change would be if someone could somehow show that the data we have is simply wrong. But too many of us have looked at it, gone through it piece by piece, to believe that there is any chance at all that the evidence could be discredited. But anyone is free to try. We are having a few reasonable discussions about Zach's report on the Rybka Forum. And for a change, we are talking about actual stuff in the report, rather than the "this is builsh**" sort of comments that have been prevalent, although by only a half-dozen or so members over there.

Maybe it will become more factual, and less personal, at least in a couple of threads. Feel free to join in.

hyatt wrote:George, so long as your posts are informative as opposed to personal, I'm willing to discuss anything.

Let me at least get my quote correct that you mentioned...

"given the data that we have, if this were to go to court and Vas were found innocent, I would still consider him guilty." The only way that would change would be if someone could somehow show that the data we have is simply wrong. But too many of us have looked at it, gone through it piece by piece, to believe that there is any chance at all that the evidence could be discredited. But anyone is free to try. We are having a few reasonable discussions about Zach's report on the Rybka Forum. And for a change, we are talking about actual stuff in the report, rather than the "this is builsh**" sort of comments that have been prevalent, although by only a half-dozen or so members over there.

Maybe it will become more factual, and less personal, at least in a couple of threads. Feel free to join in.

I stand corrected.


Best,

gts

For the record, many guilty people go free, due to many different reasons. OJ comes to mind. But I doubt you will find many that think he was not guilty. You might find a lot that think that the prosecution was completely incompetent in presenting the case, that at least one cop was probably dishonest and planted evidence. But I personally believe he was guilty as sin.

Another shining example of the highly intelligent supporters of Vas and Rybka argument of innocence

Subject re: Vas: INNOCENT of IREELEVANT ICG
From Bill_Strong
Date Aug 1, 2011 10:40 am
URL http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/message/v ... 5#41144313
Just for YOUR info rmation, the PROFESSIONALS and INDEPDENENT at Rybkaforum have found Vas to be 100% ORIGINAL while THE CLONERS spam your PRETEND forum here.
for +300 ELO to us eliete chess players

there is no doubt that the real, free, open debate is occuring at Rybka forum.

Bill Strong, BERMUDA