OpenChess

How did we go from "Engine Originality vs. Engine Strength" to a debate between a Socialist who wants to share the wealth and Corporate Capitalist who thinks huge gap between the rich and poor is a good thing? Got my bowl of pop-corn mmmm...this ought to be good.

thorstenczub wrote:

Charles wrote:

Uly wrote:

Charles wrote:According to your logic a garbage man should make the same as a doctor.

My logic says that people should be able to have a living without having to work as a garbage man or a doctor. Paid work is just modern slavery.

Where has this worked? It has been tried many times it cannot work.

In fact, it does not even work in nature.. No animal can survive without hunting for food ... that is the work -- to get food ...

you don't understand the idea.
people get enough to have a living without having to work for it.
and THEN they go and do some important work, because they find it boring NOT to do anything.
but in this case, they LIKE what they do, because they have the choice.
in a capitalistic society people have no choice and no alternative. they have to pay for things others commit/cause.
and they have to protestute themselves.
of course this makes people ill.
some go mad, others become politicians.
and again others dictators or murderer.

Hmm..I live in a capitalist country (USA) and I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am not rich but I am making my living while doing the work I love. I think people do have a choice.

kingliveson wrote:How did we go from "Engine Originality vs. Engine Strength" to a debate between a Socialist who wants to share the wealth and Corporate Capitalist who thinks huge gap between the rich and poor is a good thing?

Because I claimed that the current money system leads to competition, which leads to slower advancement of computer chess, that could be avoided if people cooperated, which could only be possible in a different society.

In a cooperative society, all programs would be open source, and the relevant parts could be used freely from one program to another. Engine Strength would be much higher, and originality would not have relevance. Why would you want to keep some new powerful idea secret?

tomgdrums wrote:Hmm..I live in a capitalist country (USA) and I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am not rich but I am making my living while doing the work I love. I think people do have a choice.

You do, it doesn't mean all people below you in the pyramid can do the same and have an option. See all the unemployed people that are struggling to get a job, and have no choice but to accept whatever they can get their hands on.

Uly wrote:

kingliveson wrote:How did we go from "Engine Originality vs. Engine Strength" to a debate between a Socialist who wants to share the wealth and Corporate Capitalist who thinks huge gap between the rich and poor is a good thing?

Because I claimed that the current money system leads to competition, which leads to slower advancement of computer chess, that could be avoided if people cooperated, which could only be possible in a different society.

In a cooperative society, all programs would be open source, and the relevant parts could be used freely from one program to another. Engine Strength would be much higher, and originality would not have relevance. Why would you want to keep some new powerful idea secret?

Only problem is "What drives progress"? If there is no goal, such as winning a tournament or developing a product for sale, then nothing happens as there is no incentive to make progress. Communism is a classic example. What is the incentive to work if everything you work for is turned over to the state and the state doles out just enough money for each person to survive???

Uly wrote:

tomgdrums wrote:Hmm..I live in a capitalist country (USA) and I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am not rich but I am making my living while doing the work I love. I think people do have a choice.

You do, it doesn't mean all people below you in the pyramid can do the same and have an option. See all the unemployed people that are struggling to get a job, and have no choice but to accept whatever they can get their hands on.

Believe me I know I am lucky to have landed into a position that pays me to do the work I love. However it took a LONG time and a lot of work. Work that included doing some very though, dirty and decidedly unglamorous jobs. I made the choice to keep going and to keep striving. It took 15 years (and much personal economic strife) for me to get to a place that felt good. And I will never take it for granted!!

NOW having said all of that. I firmly acknowledge that there are those who do need help and who do need assistance. And I believe that society should do all it can to help those people help themselves! Society should never turn it's back.

hyatt wrote:Only problem is "What drives progress"? If there is no goal, such as winning a tournament or developing a product for sale, then nothing happens as there is no incentive to make progress. Communism is a classic example. What is the incentive to work if everything you work for is turned over to the state and the state doles out just enough money for each person to survive???

There would be goals not related to money. I play all my computer correspondence chess games without any money interest (the WBCCC does give prize money but it was just an extra to me, I would have taken exactly the same actions even if it didn't have any of it).

Examples are all around us, Jeremy created this forum as a service to the community for no commercial interest, the moderators are vigilant of stopping Spambots on their tracks for no commercial interest, and all the people contribute to the forum without winning a cent. Why? Because we want it to be a better place, I don't see why a forum would in principle be different from the world (there are currently no money transactions in the forum, and events happen just fine).

It's also weird that you speak like that, I thought you did computer chess because it was a hobby that you love, would it really affect you negatively if everything would suddenly be free? Wouldn't you just have more time to dedicate at what you love doing?

The money as incentive to do what one loves to do is a fallacy, we'd just find ourself doing different things (for the people that are currently not doing what they'd wish to be doing).

tomgdrums wrote:Believe me I know I am lucky to have landed into a position that pays me to do the work I love. However it took a LONG time and a lot of work. Work that included doing some very though, dirty and decidedly unglamorous jobs. I made the choice to keep going and to keep striving. It took 15 years (and much personal economic strife) for me to get to a place that felt good. And I will never take it for granted!!

Well, wouldn't it have been better if you could have attained the same 15 years before? Doing very though, unglamorous jobs shouldn't be necessary to reach your goal, the point, is that the fighting required to reach where you are is artificial and superimposed.

tomgdrums wrote:Hmm..I live in a capitalist country (USA) and I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am not rich but I am making my living while doing the work I love. I think people do have a choice.

yes. you live in a capitalistic society.
YOU maybe make your living. but what is with all the others in USA.
the wars USA had to fight for oil ?
all the dictators USA implemented or supported by giving them HUGE amount of weapons and money ?
You live in a bancrupt society. China has nearly bought whole USA.

its only a matter of time until your whole society - you call : it works - crashes down .

when poor people in usa get ill. do they have any choice ?
all the products are produced in china, korea, japan, ...

outside USA.

Uly wrote:

hyatt wrote:Only problem is "What drives progress"? If there is no goal, such as winning a tournament or developing a product for sale, then nothing happens as there is no incentive to make progress. Communism is a classic example. What is the incentive to work if everything you work for is turned over to the state and the state doles out just enough money for each person to survive???

There would be goals not related to money. I play all my computer correspondence chess games without any money interest (the WBCCC does give prize money but it was just an extra to me, I would have taken exactly the same actions even if it didn't have any of it).

Examples are all around us, Jeremy created this forum as a service to the community for no commercial interest, the moderators are vigilant of stopping Spambots on their tracks for no commercial interest, and all the people contribute to the forum without winning a cent. Why? Because we want it to be a better place, I don't see why a forum would in principle be different from the world (there are currently no money transactions in the forum, and events happen just fine).

It's also weird that you speak like that, I thought you did computer chess because it was a hobby that you love, would it really affect you negatively if everything would suddenly be free? Wouldn't you just have more time to dedicate at what you love doing?

The money as incentive to do what one loves to do is a fallacy, we'd just find ourself doing different things (for the people that are currently not doing what they'd wish to be doing).

tomgdrums wrote:Believe me I know I am lucky to have landed into a position that pays me to do the work I love. However it took a LONG time and a lot of work. Work that included doing some very though, dirty and decidedly unglamorous jobs. I made the choice to keep going and to keep striving. It took 15 years (and much personal economic strife) for me to get to a place that felt good. And I will never take it for granted!!

Well, wouldn't it have been better if you could have attained the same 15 years before? Doing very though, unglamorous jobs shouldn't be necessary to reach your goal, the point, is that the fighting required to reach where you are is artificial and superimposed.

I can definitely tell you it wasn't artificial! And I like how you changed my phrase of "to keep going and to keep striving" into fighting. I wasn't fighting anyone. I was (and still am) just striving and reaching (and along with that came some struggle).

And it would not have been better to have attained what I have 15 years earlier because how I do my job has been shaped by my experiences. I could not be the person I am now without those struggles or experiences.

The problem with your argument is that you are making money the root of all evil. The fact is that the LOVE of money is the problem! That is where people get greedy and start to take advantage of others.

And the other problem with your argument is that even if you take money out of the equation, the human condition will just replace it with love of power etc. etc.

thorstenczub wrote:

tomgdrums wrote:Hmm..I live in a capitalist country (USA) and I am doing exactly what I want to do. I am not rich but I am making my living while doing the work I love. I think people do have a choice.

yes. you live in a capitalistic society.
YOU maybe make your living. but what is with all the others in USA.
the wars USA had to fight for oil ?
all the dictators USA implemented or supported by giving them HUGE amount of weapons and money ?
You live in a bancrupt society. China has nearly bought whole USA.

its only a matter of time until your whole society - you call : it works - crashes down .

when poor people in usa get ill. do they have any choice ?
all the products are produced in china, korea, japan, ...

outside USA.

Before I continue I must add that I do know and believe the USA has a LOT of areas for improvement! We need to get off of oil and create or find a sustainable source of energy! You will not find any argument from me on that one.

As a person who did NOT have medical insurance for 18 years and was just barely making it I can definitively answer your question regarding health care:

I was never denied health care at a hospital OR a doctor! Ever! They would reduce the rate or let me pay it off over time.

A friend of mine who was a musician and dirt poor and had no insurance was accepted into one of the best private hospitals for an emergency apendectomy in and did not have to pay. The hospital wrote it off and decided NOT to charge him.

Another friend of mine who had a rare form of blood cancer and was dropped by his insurance was still able to receive the treatment through a state sponsored program.

So once again there are choices!

And once again let me say that I KNOW our health care system is not perfect and needs overhaul (especially the INSURANCE companies) but it isn't as bleak as people make it out to be sometimes.