Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

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kingliveson
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Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by kingliveson »



Here is a position (Clemenz Opening) designed for black, but white should be able to win with "perfect" material and positional structure understanding. Rybka tends to play this well against Ippolit family engines. Last game from the list below is draw, but FireBird crashed at the end. Time control is 10 minutes plus 15 seconds increments.

PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen
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AnthonyTheSage
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by AnthonyTheSage »

My favourite opening to test engine positional knowledge is is the Indian Defence, Accelerated Variation(rn1qkb1r/pbpppppp/1p3n2/8/2PP4/2N5/PP2PPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4) From blacks point of view. White has all central control. Black has to fight for position. Many engines play this badly. Although some play it extremely well. I recently watched Deep Sjeng WC2008 crush Houdini from black in this position. This postion is perfect to see which engines are are stripped of postional knowledge. For example Shredder as expected does really well. Naum plays it extremely poorly, as does Rybka 3. Rybka 4, not so bad. Anyways check it out......Cheers.
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kingliveson
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by kingliveson »

AnthonyTheSage wrote:My favourite opening to test engine positional knowledge is is the Indian Defence, Accelerated Variation(rn1qkb1r/pbpppppp/1p3n2/8/2PP4/2N5/PP2PPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4) From blacks point of view. White has all central control. Black has to fight for position. Many engines play this badly. Although some play it extremely well. I recently watched Deep Sjeng WC2008 crush Houdini from black in this position. This postion is perfect to see which engines are are stripped of postional knowledge. For example Shredder as expected does really well. Naum plays it extremely poorly, as does Rybka 3. Rybka 4, not so bad. Anyways check it out......Cheers.
Will definitely check it out.



Could you kindly post the game between Sjeng and Houdini?
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen
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AnthonyTheSage
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by AnthonyTheSage »



There is no engine that understands positional compensation like Deep Sjeng. Here it sacs the exchange for a postion that Houdini cannot escape from(no pun intended).
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AnthonyTheSage
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by AnthonyTheSage »

I guess I better post the conditions of the game or else people might complain. It was a 5 min blitz game, played on my old school P4 2.8ghz.
Also.......does anybody know if its possible to flip the board when posting pgns, so you can view the game from blacks point of view?
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kingliveson
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by kingliveson »

AnthonyTheSage wrote: .
.
.
Also.......does anybody know if its possible to flip the board when posting pgns, so you can view the game from blacks point of view?
Not sure if it is possible while posting pgns, but clicking on E7 square flips the board.

Also, I am testing your suggested position with 10 engines (90 games) and will post result later.
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen
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kingliveson
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by kingliveson »

AnthonyTheSage wrote:My favourite opening to test engine positional knowledge is is the Indian Defence, Accelerated Variation(rn1qkb1r/pbpppppp/1p3n2/8/2PP4/2N5/PP2PPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4)
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The position was tested with all 64-bit engines. Critter was impressive! FireBird using Dr.Wael Deeb settings did not drop a single game -- though it almost lost the last game against Naum which had it pinned. Naum was stubborn and moved a pawn with 1 move remaining to 50-move rule to avoid draw, and ended up losing. Wild end-game play by Crafty. 
Third World War  2010
 
                                    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  

1   FireBird 1.1 x64                ** ½½ ½½ ½½ 1½ 11 1½ 1½ 11 11  13.5/18
2   Deep Rybka 4 SSE42 x64          ½½ ** ½0 ½0 11 ½1 11 11 1½ 11  13.0/18
3   Houdini 1.03a x64 POPCNT 4_CPU  ½½ ½1 ** 01 ½½ 1½ 01 1½ ½1 1½  11.5/18  96.25
4   Critter 0.80 64-bit             ½½ ½1 10 ** ½½ 10 01 ½1 1½ 11  11.5/18  92.00
5   IvanHoe 9.52b x64               0½ 00 ½½ ½½ ** 01 ½1 ½½ ½½ 11   9.0/18  66.25
6   Deep Shredder 12 x64            00 ½0 0½ 01 10 ** ½1 01 1½ 11   9.0/18  63.50
7   Stockfish 1.8 JA 64bit          0½ 00 10 10 ½0 ½0 ** 11 1½ 11   9.0/18  62.50
8   Zappa Mexico II                 0½ 00 0½ ½0 ½½ 10 00 ** ½½ 11   6.5/18  43.75
9   Naum 4.2                        00 0½ ½0 0½ ½½ 0½ 0½ ½½ ** 11   6.5/18  43.50
10  crafty-233-64-ja                00 00 0½ 00 00 00 00 00 00 **   0.5/18
† Position 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 Bb7
† EGTB Off
† Ponder Off
† 128 MB Hash
† Phenom II 940
† 4 Cores
† 4+2 Incrementing Time Control

Crafty
Pawn Hash 16 MB

FireBird
Pawn Hash 16 MB
Pawn Value 120
Rook Value 600
Queen Value 1170
Bishop Pair Value 70
Verification Reduction 8

IvanHoe
Pawn Hash 16 MB

Critter in action:


Game data available: http://chess.cygnitec.com/pgn/
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen
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AnthonyTheSage
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by AnthonyTheSage »

Thats amazing that Dr. D's Firebird didn't drop a games. I figured Naum would do poorly. Stockfish was a bit of a surprise, also doing poorly. Critter very impressive. Critter seems to have a good aggressive style. It seems the more aggressive engines do better with black from this position. If your not aggressive you can run into trouble very quickly.
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kingliveson
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Re: Clemenz Opening: Difficult for some Engines?

Post by kingliveson »

AnthonyTheSage wrote:Thats amazing that Dr. D's Firebird didn't drop a games. I figured Naum would do poorly. Stockfish was a bit of a surprise, also doing poorly. Critter very impressive. Critter seems to have a good aggressive style. It seems the more aggressive engines do better with black from this position. If your not aggressive you can run into trouble very quickly.

Stockfish didn't really do that bad if you consider it had the same score as IvanHoe. It won more games but also lost more. Critter is clearly an engine to be on the look-out for. This test probably needs to be repeated about 10 times at least to start seeing a pattern.
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen
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