Ippolit and derivatives will never be favorably accepted.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

I don't think I have a satisfactory answer to the question you posed. It is the very bone of contention that split up CCC with the camp of Graham, Conkie, Macraken, Ansari who takes the view that RE of Rybka 3 is stealing, ..., etc, ... poor Vasik.

Amusingly, this same group feels like the RE of Houdini for purposes of discovery is just fine...
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34394

Jeremy

[Robert Houdart]

Amusingly, this same group feels like the RE of Houdini for purposes of discovery is just fine...

Yes, Larry Kaufman's intervention in this thread is both very amusing and very revealing.

A couple of quotes from Larry (co-author of the Komodo engine):

"Rather my interest is to see if Houdini actually introduces any good new ideas that might be applicable to other programs. Since there is at least some indication that Houdini may be a bit stronger than some if not all other clones, it is worth looking at the differences between the programs."

"We have indeed incorporated some ideas from Rybka and from Robbo into Komodo [...] Our hope is that by combining the best ideas of other programs (as far as they can be obtained by legitimate means) with all of our own ideas we will end up with something special."

"Clearly we have not yet fully understood the strength of Rybka/Robbo or of Stockfish, as I believe that if we had we would already be at their level"

"I personally don't see anything wrong with using ideas, but not code, obtained by decompiling another program. [...] we have used some ideas (not many, most didn't work for us) from the Ippo/Robbo open source programs which were discussed here and elsewhere. I don't know whether those specific ideas came from decompiling Rybka or were original."

Amazing.
For Larry Kaufman "legitimate means" clearly include disassembling and RE of Houdini, and using ideas obtained by studying the Robbolito source code.

Robert

[BTO7]

I don't know much about how acceptable reversed engineering is. What I know is those who is at the top within a certain niche industry would not be flattered having others peeking into its secret and then destroying their money and livelihood.

Lets imagine the early Japanese auto makers dismantled the American autos and examined all screws, nuts and bolts. They could learn very fast, and as long as they are careful and skirt around patents infringement, they save a lot in not reinventing the wheel. When they start pushing their cars into the markets, no one would have felt the result and impact of reverse engineering. This could be peculiar to auto manufacturing, and maybe to many other heavier industries, which are dependent on many other aspects to be successful and RE do not give a huge advantage. Well in the case of RE of a chess engine, as we all know too well, the impact could be an overnight sensation and an immediate hit on the pockets of Master Vasik Rajlich.

We can view RE as acceptable for all times. As long as Vasik did not take out patents on any algorithm, it is just unfortunate someone came out with Ippolit. The other view is RE is closer to stealing.

My answer to the second part as is the same as what I wrote in reply to Bensstoker earlier.

Rasjid

If you don't know, read up: http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi

Your initial premise seems to be, though: even if it's legal, even if it's ethical and SOP throughout the commercial world, it's still somehow "wrong". Under what conditions, legal, ethical, can you imagine it being "ok"? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Ippo authors DID RE Rybka 3 to find out how it works, but didn't copy any code verbatim, that they used the knowledge discovered via RE as the basis for their own creation, loosely modelled after Rykba.

Jeremy

This is what I got from your link:

Question: Is reverse engineering legal?
Answer: Reverse engineering has long been held a legitimate form of discovery in both legislation and court opinions. The Supreme Court has confronted the issue of reverse engineering in mechanical technologies several times, upholding it under the principles that it is an important method of the dissemination of ideas and that it encourages innovation in the marketplace.
....
The law regarding reverse engineering in the computer software and hardware context is less clear, but has been described by many courts as an important part of software development.
...

I don't think I have a satisfactory answer to the question you posed. It is the very bone of contention that split up CCC with the camp of Graham, Conkie, Macraken, Ansari who takes the view that RE of Rybka 3 is stealing, ..., etc, ... poor Vasik.

My own view about the RE of Rybka is this. What Zach and BB did is more in the spirit of discovery and I don't think many have objections. But I have some inclination towards the anti Ippolit camp when it comes to RE by the Ippolit author and disseminating a public chess program. There never was the question of copying by Ippolit of Rybka's code.

Why is the reverse engineering of Rybka 3 to produce Ippolit and releasing it to the public domain leaning towards the unethical as I view it? Maybe... it is a chess engine... and therefore unethical...

Best Regards,
Rasjid.

What i get here from your statement ....."There never was the question of copying by Ippolit of Rybka's code." LOL There wasn't ????? All you hear over there is the CLONERS ..get real. Also Larry seems to think its just fine ....so FOR SURE then IPPO has done nothing wrong. Funny ...its ok for larry to borrow and use code as needed from Rybka for his program...yet illegal for anyone else. Goose Gander?

Regards BT

[Chan Rasjid]

...
Amazing.
For Larry Kaufman "legitimate means" clearly include disassembling and RE of Houdini, and using ideas obtained by studying the Robbolito source code.

Robert

Studying source codes is ok IMVVHO. The other means mentioned are not ok. Even if we think Houdini is from a questionable source, the best we do is leave it alone. About from Rybka...what he meant is "In my recent conversation with Vasik Rajilich ...he instructed me into many of the implementations that are unique to Rybka...."

BTW did you misquote anyone or anything:lol:

Rasjid

[Kevin Frayer]

"What i get here from your statement ....."There never was the question of copying by Ippolit of Rybka's code." LOL There wasn't ????? All you hear over there is the CLONERS ..get real. Also Larry seems to think its just fine ....so FOR SURE then IPPO has done nothing wrong. Funny ...its ok for larry to borrow and use code as needed from Rybka for his program...yet illegal for anyone else. Goose Gander?"

Regards BT

Yes, as hard as it may be to except, many people seem to make this big distinction between an action that reduces someones business profit and one that does not seem to do any financial damage. It is a belief that is based in entitlement. A business that is suckling on the consumers tit may not be pushed away while the milk is still flowing. (The unwritten businessman code)

I think you will find more about this unwritten business code on the sub-forum The Edge. lol

[Uly]

In my opinion, all people that already know about the clones should have access to the edge, but I can't do anything about it.

Well, I really tried, and even was told that I was given green light to give access to people requesting it, but in the end only one person from 7 got access, the left was left out

Hopefully another moderator will follow and will have success, for now I'll just suggest people to change their nick to something that looks like a real name (name and last name should suffice) and request access directly to Dadi Jonsson, perhaps you're lucky.

[Gino]

In my opinion, all people that already know about the clones should have access to the edge, but I can't do anything about it.

Well, I really tried, and even was told that I was given green light to give access to people requesting it, but in the end only one person from 7 got access, the left was left out

Hopefully another moderator will follow and will have success, for now I'll just suggest people to change their nick to something that looks like a real name (name and last name should suffice) and request access directly to Dadi Jonsson, perhaps you're lucky.

That's where we disagree, I will never be "lucky" to have access to the edge forum because I don't have any interest in conversations that take place behind closed doors. I'm not that kind of person.
But, the rybka forum might be lucky to have my participation in that sub-forum if they ever open it to everyone, otherwise good luck anyway!.

(Loboestepario in Rybka forum)

[Uly]

perhaps you're lucky.

I will never be "lucky" to have access to the edge

I was referring to people that want the access.