The Evidence against Rybka

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BB+
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by BB+ » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:17 am

Sorry, I missed this post a couple days ago.
Chris Whittington wrote:Perhaps if I spell out the critical point in easy to understand terms, we might actually get an answer from you?
[...]
The parallel to Fruit/Rybka, is that plagiarism (the verdict levelled by the icga) is not applicable UNLESS FRUIT OWNS THE ALLEGEDLY PLAGIARISED THING.

That's why we don't talk about plagiarism of null move or minimax. Too common, too often used. Evaluation sub components likewise only you missed that in your reports.
My answer is exactly the same as what it was before: the copyright of Fruit 2.1 covers its specific choice of which evaluation (sub)components to use, no matter how pedestrian any one of these may be in and of itself. Also, pace what Rybka Forum seems to argue/delineate, "code copying" means more than just "literal" copying of code. Refer to Whelan versus Jaslow, for example.
Title 17 U.S.C. §102(a)(1) extends copyright protection to “literary works,” and computer programs are classified as literary works for the purposes of copyright...The copyrights of other literary works can be infringed even when there is no substantial similarity between the works’ literal elements. One can violate the copyright of a play or book by copying its plot or plot devices. [...] copyright “cannot be limited literally to the text, else a plagiarist would escape by immaterial variations”. By analogy to other literary works, it would thus appear that the copyrights of computer programs can be infringed even absent copying of the literal elements of the program. [The counterargument of the defendants was then rejected].
In this regard, the "filtration" step of AFC applies principally to things so common that almost everyone uses them, or to those necessitated by outside factors; it should not be applied to things for which there is a reasonable choice to be made, which is my understanding of "evaluation subcomponents".
Rebel @ TalkChess wrote:What Zach, Mark Watkins researched was the Rybka chess program. With the "Vas is guilty" already branded in their minds [...]
This opinion of Mr. Schröder's concerning "pre-assumed guilt" is erroneous, at least in my case. For instance, one can recall that I was quite skeptical of Yuri Osipov's attempts to make Rybka/Strelka look like Fruit, until first Rick Fadden and then Zach provided more weighty evidence.

Damir Desevac
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by Damir Desevac » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:10 pm

How old are these individuals ? 20/25 ? You tend to believe some brats, compared to Ed and Chris, who have over 30 years of programming experience..

veritas
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by veritas » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:24 pm

Damir Desevac wrote:How old are these individuals ? 20/25 ? You tend to believe some brats, compared to Ed and Chris, who have over 30 years of programming experience..

They are of an age to match the IQ of those that do believe Ed and Chris :arrow:

hyatt
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by hyatt » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:41 pm

Damir Desevac wrote:How old are these individuals ? 20/25 ? You tend to believe some brats, compared to Ed and Chris, who have over 30 years of programming experience..
What a ridiculous statement. The sort of statement I would expect to hear FROM Ed or Chris, in fact...

Damir Desevac
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by Damir Desevac » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:50 pm

How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.

veritas
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by veritas » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:02 pm

Damir Desevac wrote:How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.
And Chris and Ed argue Black is white
Ed may even believe it , Chris on the other hand acts as a semi devils advocate playing oneupmanshi* mind games trying to impress all of his superior intellect (joke) and or see his name in lights ( however dim )

whats your Excuse a wish to see some pseudo organization hosting its own (Vas's) world championship come chump peonship:?:

Get it into your heads all these procrastinations and red herrings do not change simple FACT Vas broke a rule and acted as if he was above rules .

He was punished for breaking rules

end of story but for muck rackers and fanboys

wgarvin
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by wgarvin » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:19 pm

Damir Desevac wrote:How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.
Interesting. You claim (1) that Zach doesn't have much experience decompiling, (2) that there are errors in his report, and even (3) that ..something (the report?) is a "complete nonsense".

Do you have any proof to support these grand accusations? Where is it? Most of the programmers who have read Zach's report did not believe it was "complete nonsense". I'm a programmer, I've read the report, I'm not aware of any errors in it. Some people (Miguel B., Ed S., Chris W.) have disputed the importance of the PST evidence, but as far as I know no one has shown any actual errors in Zach's report. Or in Mark W's report.

There is enough evidence to conclude that Rybka plagarised from Fruit 2.1, and that's what the ICGA did. Vas made no attempt to defend himself, or correct any erroneous impressions that the panel or ICGA board might have had. He ignored repeated attempts to get his opinion about the evidence before the report was written. He didn't provide any alternate explanations the evidence that was found. If he actually believes he is innocent, he had lots of opportunities to say so, and make his case. Maybe if he had, the outcome would have been different.

zwegner
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by zwegner » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:11 pm

Damir Desevac wrote:How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.
Ah, I love the internet. Of course, Chris and Ed have zero experience in reverse engineering, but they know far more about it than me! You know more about reverse engineering than I do too, and you are also much smarter than me! Your point is completely valid.

hyatt
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by hyatt » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:18 am

Damir Desevac wrote:How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.

First, what are you basing your "certainly not much" on? From looking at his report, I'd say he is quite good. From spot-checking quite a bit of his asm-to-C analysis, I would say he is even better than that. Chris or Ed couldn't even UNDERSTAND the asm to C comparison, much less find errors in it. Ed admitted this on rybka forum, in fact, stating he could not do it at all. What, exactly, in Zach's or Mark's reports is "complete nonsense"? You sound like another wannabe expert that actually does not know the difference between a "mov instruction" and a "bowel movement." To see an example of the latter, see your post...

veritas
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Re: The Evidence against Rybka

Post by veritas » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:00 am

hyatt wrote:
Damir Desevac wrote:How much experience do you think Zach has in decompiling ? Certainly not much ( unlike Osipov, Richard Vida etc..). Whenever Chris or Ed express their view and point errors in his report, it is either you or somebody else speaking on his behalf. And when he finally answers, he completely ignores the subject, and does not come up with any constructive points, but tells Ed and Chris that they should keep reading his erroneous report. He is trying to convince them that what he came up with, is an absolute true, while in fact is a complete nonsense. You yourself are aware of this, and yet you still support this disastrous project. It won't end well for ICGA, and might just as well be its downfall.

First, what are you basing your "certainly not much" on? From looking at his report, I'd say he is quite good. From spot-checking quite a bit of his asm-to-C analysis, I would say he is even better than that. Chris or Ed couldn't even UNDERSTAND the asm to C comparison, much less find errors in it. Ed admitted this on rybka forum, in fact, stating he could not do it at all. What, exactly, in Zach's or Mark's reports is "complete nonsense"? You sound like another wannabe expert that actually does not know the difference between a "mov instruction" and a "bowel movement." To see an example of the latter, see your post...
+1 for closing remark :)

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