Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

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Jeremy Bernstein
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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by Jeremy Bernstein » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:44 am

Uly wrote:
hyatt wrote:I think BB's judgement there is impeccable...
Really? What would you think if I, instead of replying to you here like I'm doing, posted my reply at the Hiarcs Forum, and then blamed you for missing it/taking too long to answer?

It doesn't work. If you have something to say about some post, you post the comment in the forum it was posted.
Or you post in one place, so that all of the information is at one location. If BB+ doesn't want to "support" the Rybka forum with his posts, that's totally understandable, esp. considering the way non-conform posts are dealt with there (by rabidly faithful users and inconsistent moderators). I have a similar policy wrt talkchess.

Whatever, it's always something... Did you want to talk about content, or about netiquette?

jb

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Uly
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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by Uly » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:29 am

Jeremy Bernstein wrote:If BB+ doesn't want to "support" the Rybka forum with his posts, that's totally understandable
"Supporting" Rybka Forum? What does that mean?

What about supporting communication and making it possible for the people you're addressing to read your message?

For instance, mballicora doesn't visit OpenChess and shouldn't be forced to register just to continue the conversation here. "Let's each only add replies in our favorite forum" would be ridiculous.

How would you feel if I made CCC "my forum"and you were forced to register and reply there to my posts to have a conversation, just because I refused to have an account here for reasons no longer valid?

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by hyatt » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:45 am

Based on _real_ experience, I'd say BB's reason for not posting over there is just as sound today as it was back then. Moderation is not exactly a well-defined art over there...

In fact, the moderators are a big part of the problem...

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Uly
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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by Uly » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:58 am

I don't see all the threads mentioning "Houdini" being deleted like they used to. We used to have such problems on a daily basis. What problem do we have now? You posted an insult someone reported and the moderator deleted it.

What else?

We had there such mistakes even before BB+ quit. BB+ quit because of the forum policy and because it was being applied inconsistently, which is no longer the case.

Back when BB+ quit I resigned my position as Rybka Forum moderator for the same reasons, but I had the common sense of not making having and following conversations hard for others.

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by hyatt » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:25 pm

An example.

I told someone they didn't read and comprehend something being discussed. That was considered a personal insult and was deleted. I was called "a pompous ass" and that was left as perfectly OK. Even moderators there can insult with impunity. I posted some code to show how one bit of source code can be rewritten without changing the semantics. One using a for loop, one using a while loop. One using a hand-coded loop with a goto. I unfortunately used i as the loop index. And if you use [letter-i] there, it becomes an italics tag. I tried to edit the post to fix it, but missed a couple of "i's (i changed almost everything to the letter k which was safe). A moderator there went on and on about my programming skills when I had one line with K and one I had not fixed with an I. And he then continued further, about what a lousy teacher I must be and such. All personal. All left in place...

It's not a great place, to be sure...

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by BB+ » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:49 pm

I really don't wish to belabor PST to death [and am not really "answering" anyone in this paragraph], but I might point out that the Fruit arrays came "with the instructions included". That is, there is not really a blind comparison of array X in Fruit to array Y in Rybka, but a comparison of array X which came from method M in Fruit with array Y in Rybka. The fact that array Y can be generated most directly via method M then becomes more relevant, again in an "Occam's Razor" sense.

Furthermore, the evidence is (almost necessarily) merely prima facie in nature, but wasn't disputed/rebutted by Rajlich, and would seem to meet a "likelihood of probabilities" evidentiary standard (say 75%+ for each relevant array) if there is no further comment, particularly if all PSTs are considered as a group [by which point it could be "beyond a reasonable doubt"]. Any individual example of the Rybka/Fruit PST situation could be attributed to chance, or some other process that produces the same results, which is one reason why I prefer to present them as a whole, and for that matter, to present the PST matter "as part of the whole": first recalling the prior incident of Crafty copying with an earlier Rybka version, then adducing the (more) literally copied parts from Fruit in the iterative search and go parsing (including time management), adding to that the evaluation comparison overlap, then the hash table idiosyncracies, etc.

Much of the debate (so far) on the Rybka forum seem to consider various prospective explanatory rebuttals Rajlich might possibly make (either with PST or in general), which seems to miss the point of a prima facie argument [not to mention that none of these explanations were actually made in the ICGA process]. This can also tend to ignore a pertinent legalistic principle, that any accused must present a specific exposition [to be weighed by the adjudicator, after additional interrogation and/or criticism perhaps], and not rely on the sum-total of all possibilities. Thus, as a personal consideration (if nothing else), I don't have much interest in bickering about what "might have been" (with PST or otherwise), at least when such concoctions are (notably) less probable than any prima facie and/or "Occam's Razor" argument.

Finally, I must be missing something about Miguel's accounting, as he seems to imply that the -3 -1 0 1 array/vector is a parameter, whereas I would say that it is specifically fixed for the Fruit/Rybka discussion [or alternatively, that the divisibilities in his method must be kept]. It's somewhat clear that if you allow this array to vary then more configurations are possible PST-wise, but OTOH it's exactly the point that this array didn't vary (and similarly for most other pieces) when discussing the Fruit process and the Rybka numbers. If the argument is then that Rybka only re-used "half" the numbers of Fruit, I would take this to be fairly conclusive that Rybka is (at least) "half" unoriginal herein. 8-)

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by ernest » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:05 pm

hyatt wrote:And he then continued further, about what a lousy teacher I must be and such. All personal. All left in place...
C'mon Bob, have you really lost your sense of humor?... :D

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by hyatt » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:44 pm

I see no humor there at all, just idiocy.

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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by ernest » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:05 am

Yes, but YOU should take some distance...

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Uly
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Re: Questions for BB about Rybka PST = Fruit PST

Post by Uly » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:40 am

BB+ wrote:Finally, I must be missing something about Miguel's accounting
Yet you won't do anything about it, this is just one-sided conversation.

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