Still waiting on Ed

[Sean Evans]

It has surprised me you made such a big deal about my initial teasing remark to remove all Rybka code from Crafty. You had to blow it up. Why?

Teasing is okay, but you accused Hyatt of using obfuscated code/ideas from Ippo*/Rybka without a shred of evidence to piss him off. You are lucky you did not get sued. That is slander and defaming.

[veritas]

It has surprised me you made such a big deal about my initial teasing remark to remove all Rybka code from Crafty. You had to blow it up. Why?

Teasing is okay, but you accused Hyatt of using obfuscated code/ideas from Ippo*/Rybka without a shred of evidence to piss him off. You are lucky you did not get sued. That is slander and defaming.

you do know that slanders word of mouth not finger

[alfons]

Dear Ed,

your idea , to post stuff from the seventies is a most irritating approach to smear Hyatt's reputation and annoys for sure (while I do amend that Hyatt's remarks were despicable...or at least sound strange (for an european)).

But your method of bringing decisions of UCI into the debate (from: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22421)

2. The life-time ban is way out of control. Not even in professional cycling with all its doping scandals life-time bans are practiced. When a cyclists is caught part of the punishment is the public humiliation via the media.

and compare them with ICGA's verdict, you are actively stearing your wooden and wormed sailing-argument-vessel-device onto the lee shore (by onshore winds) and I dare say that beachgoers will have fun scavenging the wreckage.

cheers

[hyatt]

Why? Because there is no Rybka code in Crafty. Absolutely none. As I have previously mentioned, the _only_ "Rybka idea" I have tested was the tt-singular extension. Did not work for me in any form I tried. I removed it from Stockfish and it made no different when I tested on my cluster. I tossed the idea out.

I certainly have ideas originated by people other than myself. I also have ideas in crafty that are 100% original. With the 3 exceptions previously mentioned, I have _zero_ code in Crafty that was taken from other programs. And with respect to ideas, I have exactly none that came from IP*/Robo*/etc.

So why did I respond? To correct a purely false implication you made. It was quite simple. The only problem you will run into with me is that I have too much data saved away so that I can explain precisely where every Elo improvement in Crafty came from, down to the specific code changes, as I did for your 23.2-23.3 comment.

So, you _directly_ implied that I had code or ideas from Rybka (you stated it each way in a different post). I said I do not. You gave an example, and I showed the changes that produced the Elo gain, which were (a) totally unrelated to Rybka and (b) wer actually very simple changes to existing code that was in Crafty well before Rybka (ip* and friends) became public...

And you have nothing to retract?

Your closing paragraph is a rambling "sorta-excuse". However, for the EBF code you mentioned, it is crystal clear that the code was already in Crafty, and that the idea in Crafty is totally unreleated to Rybka/stockfish/et. al.

[hyatt]

Dear Ed,

your idea , to post stuff from the seventies is a most irritating approach to smear Hyatt's reputation and annoys for sure (while I do amend that Hyatt's remarks were despicable...or at least sound strange (for an european)).

But your method of bringing decisions of UCI into the debate (from: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=22421)

2. The life-time ban is way out of control. Not even in professional cycling with all its doping scandals life-time bans are practiced. When a cyclists is caught part of the punishment is the public humiliation via the media.

and compare them with ICGA's verdict, you are actively stearing your wooden and wormed sailing-argument-vessel-device onto the lee shore (by onshore winds) and I dare say that beachgoers will have fun scavenging the wreckage.

cheers

And the lifetime ban statement is wrong. The best example is Pete Rose, who received a lifetime ban from professional baseball for gambling on the outcome of games (not the games his team were playing in, either). So there are examples of shorter bans for cheating, no bans for cheating, and lifetime bans for cheating. It is not like it has never happened before.

And Pete Rose _did_ try to defend his actions, quite unlike Vas.

[Peterpan]

Hi there everyone.I actually quit computer chess.Just had a quick look here since i registered a month or 2 back on this forum.

Hi Norm

I see you compared Ivanhoe 64 bits to Rybka 3 32 bits.
Now if you look closely you will see the ELO difference between Rybka 3 and Ivanhoe in this rating list is only 36 ELO's which is not really much

Secondly,just a general thought.

Hypothetically speaking... (and sorry for also highjacking this thread,by the way i don't drink bear )

If i were to clone Rybka 3 i would...

1.)Be an expert reverse-engineer.
2.)Be a pretty good programmer.
3.)Be able to rewrite many routines to make it look less clone-like
4.)Remove some evaluation functions to speed up program to also remove even more suspicion.
5.)Be an anonymous team of unknown programmers.
6.)Have a grudge against Vasik (mainly jealousy,since he ruled computer chess for nearly 4 years)
7.)Have my main goal of cloning Rybka to point out that Rybka is the actual clone
8.)Be a member or members of the ICGA investigation panel

This is what i would have done.

I am not for any form of cloning or stealing of any code whatsoever.
But i just want to leave this remark and be honest to myself and fair to Vasik and everyone involved in computer chess.

If Vasik did not rewrite Fruit completely and improved it by more than 200 ELO's then there would not be so many strong chess engines out there now.
Do not take away the work Vasik has done for computer chess from him.
If he has used fruit code or similar code (which many of his accusers also does now anyway,by obfuscating the code to make it look original and call it just using ideas) to create a stronger chess engine,and it's not just a matter of tuning values,i do not buy into that... if he has not done that,computer chess programs would be far behind now in ELO and you would see weaker ELO's in the top.

Suppose his engine was reversed-engineered and the ideas he has added is in the open now,then the computer chess world is richer now.Do you shoot someone who feeds you ? even if he has taken the food from someone else?

Lets get over the past,nobody is perfect,lets judge every single engine in the future then with the same critical views as we did Rybka,and be fair.Stop the damn witch hunt.Vasik is a person,a real person,with a family and even if he is guilty of everything he is accused of,he does not deserve to be treated like DIRT.

This is why i quit computer chess,and any activity on any chess forums.

I am not for or against Rybka or any other clone or chess engine or person.

But i am against trying to destroy an individual that has given the world the strongest chess engine for several years.Yes it's not the strongest anymore.Houdini is now,which is also a clone of Ivanhoe i suspect although the first Houdini was an improved Robbolito clone.But Houdart will have to live with this and his conscience and by stating merely that he used ideas is not the truth.So please,all chess programmers,stop the lies,stop the cloning,and start being original.ELO is not everything.Integrity and honesty and looking in the mirror and seeing the person looking back at you is.

If anyone of you can live with yourself and feel happy by destroying someone else,then so be it,but i will not live with myself any further without stating how i feel.

Lastly,i am against any clones or any form of stealing ideas (but within reason and without hatred)

Peterpan signing out,and wishing all chess engine programmers,peace,prosperity,originality and honesty.

[veritas]

Hi there everyone.I actually quit computer chess.Just had a quick look here since i registered a month or 2 back on this forum.

Hi Norm

I see you compared Ivanhoe 64 bits to Rybka 3 32 bits.
Now if you look closely you will see the ELO difference between Rybka 3 and Ivanhoe in this rating list is only 36 ELO's which is not really much

Secondly,just a general thought.

Hypothetically speaking... (and sorry for also highjacking this thread,by the way i don't drink bear )

If i were to clone Rybka 3 i would...

1.)Be an expert reverse-engineer.
2.)Be a pretty good programmer.
3.)Be able to rewrite many routines to make it look less clone-like
4.)Remove some evaluation functions to speed up program to also remove even more suspicion.
5.)Be an anonymous team of unknown programmers.
6.)Have a grudge against Vasik (mainly jealousy,since he ruled computer chess for nearly 4 years)
7.)Have my main goal of cloning Rybka to point out that Rybka is the actual clone
8.)Be a member or members of the ICGA investigation panel

This is what i would have done.

I am not for any form of cloning or stealing of any code whatsoever.
But i just want to leave this remark and be honest to myself and fair to Vasik and everyone involved in computer chess.

If Vasik did not rewrite Fruit completely and improved it by more than 200 ELO's then there would not be so many strong chess engines out there now.
Do not take away the work Vasik has done for computer chess from him.
If he has used fruit code or similar code (which many of his accusers also does now anyway,by obfuscating the code to make it look original and call it just using ideas) to create a stronger chess engine,and it's not just a matter of tuning values,i do not buy into that... if he has not done that,computer chess programs would be far behind now in ELO and you would see weaker ELO's in the top.

Suppose his engine was reversed-engineered and the ideas he has added is in the open now,then the computer chess world is richer now.Do you shoot someone who feeds you ? even if he has taken the food from someone else?

Lets get over the past,nobody is perfect,lets judge every single engine in the future then with the same critical views as we did Rybka,and be fair.Stop the damn witch hunt.Vasik is a person,a real person,with a family and even if he is guilty of everything he is accused of,he does not deserve to be treated like DIRT.

This is why i quit computer chess,and any activity on any chess forums.

I am not for or against Rybka or any other clone or chess engine or person.

But i am against trying to destroy an individual that has given the world the strongest chess engine for several years.Yes it's not the strongest anymore.Houdini is now,which is also a clone of Ivanhoe i suspect although the first Houdini was an improved Robbolito clone.But Houdart will have to live with this and his conscience and by stating merely that he used ideas is not the truth.So please,all chess programmers,stop the lies,stop the cloning,and start being original.ELO is not everything.Integrity and honesty and looking in the mirror and seeing the person looking back at you is.

If anyone of you can live with yourself and feel happy by destroying someone else,then so be it,but i will not live with myself any further without stating how i feel.

Lastly,i am against any clones or any form of stealing ideas (but within reason and without hatred)

Peterpan signing out,and wishing all chess engine programmers,peace,prosperity,originality and honesty.

A response to same post on Ippolit wiki

Angels_77 Yesterday 10:24 pm
From someone who has both benefited and contributed from and for Ippolit , we find that you leave with such a "bitter post " highly upsetting

we haven't a clue what your on about as regards addressing kranium here as hes not deigned to post anything since his Fire buggy became exTreemly sad
we would however bow to his greater knowledge of cloning as hes had decades of experience at it , and been caught out several times

As regards Vas , in our opinion some have "jumped " on the band wagon and certainly profited by his fall , and yes far to much vitriol

never the less his arrogance and the way he has lied cheated and caused a lot of people financial loss by instigating the blanket bans on playchess is disgusting as is his arrogance in ignoring customers complaints re bishop bug etc . Ippolit had no difficulty in ensuring FREE engines did not suffer this AND strove to ensure ALL bugs were fixed (as did you and other windows compilers ) FOR FREE
Vas just pocketed the money and ignored all bugs and were not talking peanuts here he and Chessbase have sold millions of rybka dvds , aquarium dvds , etc etc BIG MONEY Grand theft auto chess engine
he brought on much of his punishment through sheer arrogance and his treatment of those who bought his products then compounded it with ignoring the ICGA as if dismissing them (his peers ) as irrelevant
he even still beggars belief with statements such as " i ha no idea Fabien had written to them "

Now had he had the humanity and courage to hold his hands up and offer fair compensation and credit to those he stole from and apologize to customers he'd have probably got off with a slapped wrist and a short ban , but he has done neither and laughs as he dismisses all the ICGA and those he has stolen from as irrelevant and even liars and encourages his fanboys to protest his innocence

beyond belief really but his bank mangers probably very pleased

its his reputation that's as DIRT now , he has his cluster and a damn site more profit in financial terms than anyone else in chess so should we feel sorry for him given that his attitude ?

we think not and your leaving is as a victory to him and his fan boys

that's the saddest thing to come out of all this for us Izak



http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/message/v ... 1#40842585

[BB+]

The text of the CW email where he lost his cool has been asked for, and it seems CW is OK with its publication. I happen to have it, and have nothing better to do than copy/paste it here. I might warn that it is perhaps still a bit out of context (maybe Ed can say more):

the obvious person to validate the email (which you could have done in the first place of course) is Ed Schroeder with whom I have been in email contact using this email for several years now. Since Ed suggested me "taking a look here" and he has been in contact with Hyatt (at least) concerning the very slow and actually quite rude process, you might think it hardly even necessary to ask him, but of course, depending on paranoia level, you may also not believe him as real, even though he and I have been famously in computer chess since about 1980.

Hyatt additionally has been in occasional email contact with this address principally at the time I first modded CCC. He usually claims total storage of everything, does he not?

In what sense do you and the unknown HW think you can make time wasting humiliations in this way? Not a very good start imo.

And no, please do not track my ISP, the talkchess capability of giving immediate IP access/knowledge to mods is one reason I never log in there. Read Jeremy Bernstein's account of behaviour between the "mods" Conkie, Banks and various malicious endusers relating to IP addresses and telephone numbers, for just one example - all done with full knowledge of talkchess and the tcadmin. The danger is not from us humble readers but from site owners/administrators and the occasional little hitler tendency of "mods".

[hyatt]

Chris' comment about my keeping emails "forever" is reasonably accurate. However I don't keep 'em all online. I make occasional DVD backups of everything on my box and stick 'em in my desk drawer at the office. To make sure I don't lose anything serious such as what happened to me in the mid-90's when I lost everything.

Problem with his email was that to get to those old DVDs, I had to go to my office. And for the Summer, I have been in and out a lot and rarely go down since I am not teaching during the Summer term. As a result, finding his email address was not a quick thing for me...

[kingliveson]

The text of the CW email where he lost his cool has been asked for, and it seems CW is OK with its publication. I happen to have it, and have nothing better to do than copy/paste it here. I might warn that it is perhaps still a bit out of context (maybe Ed can say more):

the obvious person to validate the email (which you could have done in the first place of course) is Ed Schroeder with whom I have been in email contact using this email for several years now. Since Ed suggested me "taking a look here" and he has been in contact with Hyatt (at least) concerning the very slow and actually quite rude process, you might think it hardly even necessary to ask him, but of course, depending on paranoia level, you may also not believe him as real, even though he and I have been famously in computer chess since about 1980.

Hyatt additionally has been in occasional email contact with this address principally at the time I first modded CCC. He usually claims total storage of everything, does he not?

In what sense do you and the unknown HW think you can make time wasting humiliations in this way? Not a very good start imo.

And no, please do not track my ISP, the talkchess capability of giving immediate IP access/knowledge to mods is one reason I never log in there. Read Jeremy Bernstein's account of behaviour between the "mods" Conkie, Banks and various malicious endusers relating to IP addresses and telephone numbers, for just one example - all done with full knowledge of talkchess and the tcadmin. The danger is not from us humble readers but from site owners/administrators and the occasional little hitler tendency of "mods".

I hope there's more because these comments do not amount to anything that should lead the panel to disallowing of CW's entrance. As much as I disagree with his views on the particular subject of Rybka, the ICGA investigating board was wrong here, unless there's more. I happen to understand the context in which he speaks regarding mod behaviours.