Crafty accused of copying Fruit PST

[hyatt]

Ed: I found, and posted my code that produced the bishop PST values in Crafty. I posted this on the Rybka forum where the topic was first pointed out. You can read my comments there, and see the code circa 2008 that evolved to produce the values that are close to Fruits for that table. I'll leave this short since there is no need to duplicate that long post here and repeat it a second time.

In this case, it turns out nothing was copied from fruit, with one exception. That being the diagonal bonus idea that we had not tried previously. The value we used was chosen by testing on our cluster, as _every_ evaluation value was tuned during that long gap between 22.1 and 22.2...

[veritas]

Some things never worked for me. Tracy took a look (specifically) at Fruit's queen scoring since we did almost nothing in that regard. First thing he noticed was mobility. We tried Fruit's simple approach (count squares * constant). We tried our weighted approach where attacking central squares is worth more than edge squares, etc. Not one dang thing worked for queen mobility as it appeared to in Fruit.

This is interesting... I remember a recent discussion you denying not being influenced by open source code such as Strelka (Rybka 1.0)

Actually, I SPECIFICALLY denied copying ideas or code from the "exposed Rybka code" that is in ip*/robo*.

That was your specific claim, if you recall, and where you produced exactly zero evidence to support it despite many requests...

So, your point would be, again?

"exposed Rybka code" that is in ip*/robo*.

strange others call IPPOLIT clean and YOU continually libel IPOLIT suggest you either prove your libel or STFU and stand your own ground without doing EXACTLY what the scum rybka fanboys are doing

I have not said much about ip* other than that I personally believe it is the result of reverse-engineering _something_. The code simply does not look like "human-produced" to me.

In the above context, however, Ed had claimed that Rybka's internal ideas were exposed by ip/robo* and that I had specifically copied ideas from that code and used it. Hence my explicit reference to ippolit since that was Ed's original claim that can be found here I believe...

Do I think ip* comes from Rybka? Yes. Am I sure? No. Is it an exact copy? No. How much is original and how much is a copy? I don't know nor care at this point. If you have noticed, I have always been "pro-discussion" about that family of programs. Vas claimed it was Rybka. Others have said it is not. To date, Mark W has offered the closest thing to a "pass" I have seen but I do not believe he said there is no parts of Rybka in IP, just that there are things in IP that are not in rybka... He can speak up if he wishes...

you do love to shoot your fingers (mouth) off don't you..

did i ask what you thought to give you yet another "knock" at your " peers /betters " NO You just cant stop insulting others with your self opinionated libelous accusations can you But Heaven forbid ANY other to cast dispensations on your apparently senile memory ,and dreadful use of the English language makes me wander if any of your students ever amounted to much

one can not be a little bit pregnant, one is or is not

i quote you """"it turns out nothing was copied from fruit, with one exception """

for your information "nothing " = 0 (zero"
NOT a Hyatt exception.. ie a CRASH

go pontificate on CCC you and GB have a lot in common

[Samer]

again...

Uly

For people missing out, the latest is that

Crafty is a clone of Fruit.

I remember as this guy was banned in Winboard forum by stupid.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

Veritas, personal attacks aren't permitted on OpenChess. We're pretty flexible about the rules here, but you've been warned by one mod (kingliveson) and now by me. Tone it down and stop hating on everyone who disagrees with your point of view, or you will be asked to take a break for a while.

Jeremy

did i ask what you thought to give you yet another "knock" at your " peers /betters " NO You just cant stop insulting others with your self opinionated libelous accusations can you But Heaven forbid ANY other to cast dispensations on your apparently senile memory ,and dreadful use of the English language makes me wander if any of your students ever amounted to much

[Rebel]

Do I think ip* comes from Rybka? Yes. Am I sure? No. Is it an exact copy? No.

I agree on this one.

Considering for the moment Vas took Fruit as a base (2800 elo) and added 400 elo on its own then:

One Vas adding +400 elo on its own is already unique in CC, another Vas doing the same is no coincidence.

Unless of course Vas is behind the release of the Ippo sources himself and is enjoying the show we are making of it.

[Rebel]

Ed: I found, and posted my code that produced the bishop PST values in Crafty. I posted this on the Rybka forum where the topic was first pointed out. You can read my comments there, and see the code circa 2008 that evolved to produce the values that are close to Fruits for that table. I'll leave this short since there is no need to duplicate that long post here and repeat it a second time.

In this case, it turns out nothing was copied from fruit, with one exception. That being the diagonal bonus idea that we had not tried previously. The value we used was chosen by testing on our cluster, as _every_ evaluation value was tuned during that long gap between 22.1 and 22.2...

I never questioned your honesty in the matter.

[veritas]

Veritas, personal attacks aren't permitted on OpenChess. We're pretty flexible about the rules here, but you've been warned by one mod (kingliveson) and now by me. Tone it down and stop hating on everyone who disagrees with your point of view, or you will be asked to take a break for a while.

Jeremy

did i ask what you thought to give you yet another "knock" at your " peers /betters " NO You just cant stop insulting others with your self opinionated libelous accusations can you But Heaven forbid ANY other to cast dispensations on your apparently senile memory ,and dreadful use of the English language makes me wander if any of your students ever amounted to much

@jeremy Are you having a laugh ? There's very many posts that are certainly far more appropriately labeled "personal attacks" than my one you MISQUOTED . commission is misquoting after all so please if your going to quote do give FULL part so the quote is in context ,you do not want to be seen as GB and his hiracs fellow little Hitler @Napoleon do you ?

Doctor Hyyat trys to mislead and misdirect in just a poor way as Vas has done and One Exception is NOT NOTHING ,,,OK ?
If you as Admin are going to show BIAS and not warn ALL those who post what is perceived by you as personal attack and let others go unwarned for FAR worse as well as for LIBEL then please do DELETE my account as befits a believer in the GB and ex playchess Hiracs guard dog poodles idea of fair and honest moderation dont just threaten with short holiday

Google my nik its Latin but means truth in any language and remember why you started this forum , google Libel as well
Personally i do not care if Doc Hyyay plagiarized Fruit ,Rebel or his students work , he never saw fit to a VAS and RIP all and sundry off financially hiding his code illegality whilst falsely libeling others ,

Ooops Doc Hyyat is following in the latter part of the above , sorry , not being "crafty" must have slipped my mind momentarily

guess my "personal attacks "on Houdart' / Astroboy and Vas' for there lack of either honesty or integrity are ok but criticizing Doc Hyyats isnt ....

ditto the very personal attacks by others on members that you've not bothered yourself with very strange

[Uly]

again...

Uly

For people missing out, the latest is that

Crafty is a clone of Fruit.

I remember as this guy was banned in Winboard forum by stupid.

Again, that was in the context of applying the same standards of saying "Rybka is a clone of Fruit because it contains Fruit's PSTs" since "Crafty contains a Fruit's PST".

Maybe Rybka is a clone of Fruit but that won't be shown by staring at the PSTs and the allegedly stolen string of "-3, -1, 0, 1" numbers that can't be copyrighted.

As for the Winboard Forum, get your facts straight. I was never banned, only given a last warning, I quit because Volker seemed to dislike me and critique every single post I was making there. But I think your memory is commendable, we're talking about things that happened in Winboard Forum in December 2004! I sure was a "n00b" back then!

[BB+]

To date, Mark W has offered the closest thing to a "pass" I have seen but I do not believe he said there is no parts of Rybka in IP, just that there are things in IP that are not in rybka... He can speak up if he wishes...

I concur with others (such as GCP) who have looked at it. There is no way that IPPOLIT could have been produced w/o knowledge of R3. The "overall concept" of both search and eval follows that of R3 in various characteristic ways. IPPOLIT seems to simplify (in some case, throw out) various R3 parts, and adds a few ideas of its own at certain junctures. I would call it a modified R3, though not a "clone" as VR did.

[BB+]

Considering for the moment Vas took Fruit as a base (2800 elo) and added 400 elo on its own then:

Although it's not related to the IPP/R3 issue, I might say that no one has yet tried to guess about the counterfactual world, where Rybka 1.0 Beta was not released, and so Fabien got a contract with Convekta, developed Fruit, and so on. I don't see any reason to think that FL would not have added substantial Elo in the same way as VR, as both seemed to have similar ideas regarding testing, investigation of pruning ideas in search, hiring others to do the "boring" task of evaluation, etc. I might put the number at anywhere from 200-600 Elo. [Also, I compute only 350 Elo (3142 minus 2793) in a 1-cpu 32-bit CCRL 40/40 comparison of Rybka 4.1 and Fruit 2.1].