The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

General discussion about computer chess...
Prima
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by Prima » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:20 am

Uly wrote:If a feature I suggests gets implemented, everyone that uses Houdini benefits.
+1.
I can hardly wait for Houdini 2.0. Perhaps RH can combine both forms of learning: the learn format suggested by you and the other type of learning he originally intended. Who knows?...
I'm also excited about Critter's learning though I don't know if it's going to remain private or released publicly. I was optimistic about Stockfish's Preserve Analysis in the unofficial branches but it turns out this may have been omitted in the official release.

Fingers crossed here.

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Uly
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by Uly » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:49 am

Prima wrote:Perhaps RH can combine both forms of learning: the learn format suggested by you and the other type of learning he originally intended. Who knows?...
Combination would mean Houdini stores everything into the permanent learn file, even things it doesn't really need, for positions you're not even going to visit. And the learn file would grow very huge very fast, with my suggested method a 16MB file can store all the learning for years before an entry needs to be overwritten, if you combine the methods then you'd need to have a file in there the size of your RAM, that doubles every time you visit a new (non-transposing) position or new game (for the times where the hash is 100% full), so in a few weeks the learn file can be several gigabytes large, full of information you're not really going to use (unless you're going to try to solve chess or something).

I think the concepts can remain separate just fine, the method I suggested focuses on making the fewest reads/writes into the learn file as possible, and into having a small "master file" for all analysis. RH's method focuses on continuing analysis from where it left off, and in having a file the size of RAM for each game you analyze (because you don't need positions of the first game using space of the hash of a second game).

They really have different purposes and no reason for combination, though the user has to choose which one to use (people leaving the engine analyzing to very high depths would prefer his method, people highly interacting with the position and analyzing as many as possible would like to stick with what I suggested).

veritas
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by veritas » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:19 pm

Do you think you two "uly & prima donna " could get a room somewhere together or pm each other rather ignoring the title of this topic , or is it expecting to much of you both...to read topics titles and post accordingly :?: :idea:

Prima
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by Prima » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:33 pm

Uly wrote:
Prima wrote:Perhaps RH can combine both forms of learning: the learn format suggested by you and the other type of learning he originally intended. Who knows?...
Combination would mean Houdini stores everything into the permanent learn file, even things it doesn't really need, for positions you're not even going to visit. And the learn file would grow very huge very fast, with my suggested method a 16MB file can store all the learning for years before an entry needs to be overwritten, if you combine the methods then you'd need to have a file in there the size of your RAM, that doubles every time you visit a new (non-transposing) position or new game (for the times where the hash is 100% full), so in a few weeks the learn file can be several gigabytes large, full of information you're not really going to use (unless you're going to try to solve chess or something).

I think the concepts can remain separate just fine, the method I suggested focuses on making the fewest reads/writes into the learn file as possible, and into having a small "master file" for all analysis. RH's method focuses on continuing analysis from where it left off, and in having a file the size of RAM for each game you analyze (because you don't need positions of the first game using space of the hash of a second game).

They really have different purposes and no reason for combination, though the user has to choose which one to use (people leaving the engine analyzing to very high depths would prefer his method, people highly interacting with the position and analyzing as many as possible would like to stick with what I suggested).
Yes the concept can remain separate. But can the 2 different methods be in one engine, where one method can be used for a specific purpose, and for another purpose, the other method can be selected? All in one engine. I guess this was the concept I tried to state when I used the term 'combining the 2 methods'. At the very least, users have the options of activating the desired 'learn function' if needed. For RH's method, disk space / RAM consumption is up to the user's discretion...

But I don't disagree with you. Your method is better or more convenient.

veritas
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:35 pm

Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by veritas » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:30 pm

@prima

thought expecting you to have either manners or respect for others and or there topics was asking to much . i assume you were dragged up not brought up properly ,as you clearly can read , just pig ignorant i guess
cest la vie

Prima
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by Prima » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:43 pm

Prima wrote:
Uly wrote:
Prima wrote:Perhaps RH can combine both forms of learning: the learn format suggested by you and the other type of learning he originally intended. Who knows?...
Combination would mean Houdini stores everything into the permanent learn file, even things it doesn't really need, for positions you're not even going to visit. And the learn file would grow very huge very fast, with my suggested method a 16MB file can store all the learning for years before an entry needs to be overwritten, if you combine the methods then you'd need to have a file in there the size of your RAM, that doubles every time you visit a new (non-transposing) position or new game (for the times where the hash is 100% full), so in a few weeks the learn file can be several gigabytes large, full of information you're not really going to use (unless you're going to try to solve chess or something).

I think the concepts can remain separate just fine, the method I suggested focuses on making the fewest reads/writes into the learn file as possible, and into having a small "master file" for all analysis. RH's method focuses on continuing analysis from where it left off, and in having a file the size of RAM for each game you analyze (because you don't need positions of the first game using space of the hash of a second game).

They really have different purposes and no reason for combination, though the user has to choose which one to use (people leaving the engine analyzing to very high depths would prefer his method, people highly interacting with the position and analyzing as many as possible would like to stick with what I suggested).
Yes the concept can remain separate. But can the 2 different methods be in one engine, where one method can be used for a specific purpose, and for another purpose, the other method can be selected? All in one engine. I guess this was the concept I tried to state when I used the term 'combining the 2 methods'. At the very least, users have the options of activating the desired 'learn function' if needed. For RH's method, disk space / RAM consumption is up to the user's discretion...

But I don't disagree with you. Your method is better or more convenient.
Also to add to my previous post, if the 2 methods were to be implemented in one engine, by RH, I wonder if your method can be made to also benefit from RH's method, at least regarding rare occurring positions. And/or vice versa. Would be worth testing this out...

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Uly
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Re: The End of Ippolit /Iggorit / Robbolito /IvanHoe ?

Post by Uly » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:19 am

Prima wrote:Yes the concept can remain separate. But can the 2 different methods be in one engine, where one method can be used for a specific purpose, and for another purpose, the other method can be selected? All in one engine. I guess this was the concept I tried to state when I used the term 'combining the 2 methods'.
Ah, sorry for misunderstanding. Yeah, I agree both methods should be available, that's what Rybka 3 did, having Persistent Hash and Save/Load Hash as different options in the same engine.

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